Rogue: Genesia cover
Rogue: Genesia screenshot
Genre: Role-playing (RPG), Indie, Arcade

Rogue: Genesia

Hotfix 0.8.0.0b

QoL



  • Option to change Player's health bar size
    since a lot of player complained about health bar being too big
  • Option to remove Dash pannel on the bottom left of the screen


Fixes



  • Swordrang and magic wisp talent being unlocked by default
  • Vulture, Fast Vulture, Kobolt and Kobolt mage droping WAY less exeperience than they were supposed to
  • Mastery multiplier from World tier giving only half as much
  • Damage over time number formating
  • Many localization issues in achievements
  • Issues with shadow not updating correctly to video setting on loading a stage
  • Unlocking D-rank world after completing F-rank world instead of E-rank
  • Unlocking Corruption after completing E-rank world instead of D-rank
  • Time reach achievement in survivors mode not working

Hotfix 0.8.0.0a

Change


Avatar button is now also display when you have beaten E-rank difficulty (previously, only having another avatar unlocked would display it)

Fixes


Issues with some events in the german translation of the game

Major Update 0.8

Hello!

After 3 intensive months of work, I am happy to share with you version 0.8 of Rogue:Genesia.
Version 0.8 Is very different from other major updates, as the main focus was the addition on major features and an important rework of the internal workings of the game instead of purely adding new content/world-ranks.

Major Features




  • Avatar system


    Rogue:Genesia now welcomes multiple playable characters, each with their own gimmicks and stats
    There is a total of 6 avatars for now, among them there are 2 secret avatars



  • Talent System


    You can now equip powerful active and multiple passive talents before you start your runs
    Each non-evolution weapon has an active talent linked to them, allowing you to start your run with them, after they reach level 1, they each have a different and unique active ability.
    There is for now a total of 15 passive talents.




  • D-rank survivors mode


    Survivors mode also has a D-rank world, you'll be plunged into the darkness of the caves, so be careful of your surroundings
    Also Survivors Challenges
    There is also a Secret ending added to any Survivors mode rank, if you can survive long enough...



  • Event Rework


    Events got a total rework, Question-marks can now give you some situations with multiple choices.



  • Defence Piercing rework


    Many enemies got buffed with armor,
    Defence Piercing also now permanently reduces enemy defence by 10% of it's value.





New Soul-Cards



Weapons



  • Explosive Vial - Throw Vials full of explosive substances in the aimed direction
  • Thunder Vial - Evolution of Explosive Vial and Thunder Staff
  • Staff of Storms - Evolution of Thunder Staff and Thunder Spirit
  • Jaäld's Amulet - Evolution of Death Aura and Fire Ring
  • as well as 10 new weapons exclusive to the Gun-Slinger


Attack Modifier



  • Thunder Spirit - Chance to create an Arc Lighting from your weapons which hit nearby enemies


Passives



  • Rust - Increases Defence Piercing
  • Reactive trigger - Procs an attack from your weapons on taking damage
  • 12 new passives exclusive to the Gun-Slinger


New Artifact




  • Portal Shard - Projectiles loop back to the other side of the screen
  • Broken Statuette - Triple Soul-Coin gain, but you gain corruption for each stage you had previously passed, you also take +50% damage


Quality of Life



  • Game History - You can now see previous runs you have done in a listed history
  • Card Details - You can now click on a card in the card list to display advanced details about the card (there is also a bind to display details of a card when in card selection)
  • Camera Lock Option - Option to lock camera on your character
  • Card Tag - Cards now have small icon to indicate which tag they belong to
  • Auto Level-up option - You can now choose if the level-up is automatic or manual (so you can choose your cards when you want) (defaults to enabled)
  • Auto Aim improvement - Now automatically targets the closest enemy (instead of the direction you are moving)
  • Mouse Control - Option to control the character with the mouse, it also automatically activates auto-aim
  • Delay Card-Selection - Option to set a safe duration during which you cannot select a card to prevent mis-clicks (defaults to 0.3sec)
  • Number Formating - Option to change how numbers are formated
    Standard for the normal way (using K/M/B/T....), Scientific or Engineering
  • Improved HealthBar visuals - Elite, Champion, Boss and Player's healthbar has been reworked to have better visuals, there is also an option to make the "useless" part of the healthbar invisible so you only have healthbars.
  • Pick-Up range visualisation - you can now see the pick-up range of your character (option to change opacity is in the settings)
  • Music Effect - Option to change how much gameplay impacts the music (slowing-down & reverb on level-up)
  • Descriptions added to gamemodes
  • Improvement to challenge panel navigation



Ton of other minors changes I simply forgot
and lots of fixes I also forgot

Release Date for Update 0.8

Hello,
It's just a simple announcement that the next update release date which is

Monday 6 March



Also, the optimisation made by Fernanda will likely be pushed to a following patch, as they are not ready to be added into the game yet.
Instead of pushing back the 0.8 update by a few weeks, I prefer to push it to a separate patch later-on.

(There are quite a few new additions since the last monthly devlog, a patch note will come when the 0.8 update drops)

Have a nice day



Bullet hell for my Valentine Bundle

Hello!

I recently got a proposition to make a bundle with 4 games, all in the Horde Survival / Bullet Heaven genre.

here is the list of game:

  • Rogue: Genesia
  • 20 Minutes Till Dawn
  • Nomad Survival
  • Void Scrappers
  • Project Lazarus


The bundle come with a 15% discount!

I believe this can help you wait until the next update of Rogue:Genesia is availible for everyone to play!

https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/30627/Bullet_Hell_for_my_Valentine/

Rogue: Genesia, February monthly DevBlog

Hello Everyone!

I hope 2023 is going well so far for you.
As you may have noticed, I recently update the game's store graphics
I always felt like a more proffesional artwork would be better, This one ended up taking me more time than I expected, but I'm quite happy with the result.


January



January was a very busy month, Adding a ton of new Quality of life I wanted to add into the game for a long time, as well as implementing a new avatar that toally change the game-play and many preparation for the developement that is left to be done during February


Quality of Life



Ton of new quality of life, either often requested of small things I wanted to add into the game for a bit of time now


Chest opening FX


A small addition which was greatly asked by many players, having a better animation when opening chests.



New GameOption menu (with the modding options)


This was something I wanted to implement into the game for a bit of time now.
The way most option was handled was very manual, and adding a simple toggle would often require more between 45 to 90 min of work and testing, and often leaved some minor bug into the menuing.
The new GameOption menu Automatically handles many option types, allowing me to add optiosn in a matter of minutes.
A similar option menu has also been added for Mods, allowing modded to add options.
The menu is still not totally completed as I also wish to add tabs so we could have differents tabs for each mods or multiple tabs for a mods.


Camera lock option


Another very requested feature, some players complained that the game would give them motion sickness due to how the camera is handled. So now there is an simple toggle to lock the camera into the player.



Anachronistic visual improvement


With more experience, I am finally skilled enough to make the visual FX I always wanted to add to anachronistic.
I also know that leaving the ability to "draw" to player can lead to some surprises



New Auto Aiming


Auto-aiming is also at the top of the most requested features.
Auto-aiming was already in the game, but it was simply taking the player's movement direction as an aiming direction. Now it properly aim for the closest enemy.



Card Details


The ability to have every information possible on card is another thing I wanted to add into the game for a long time.
This new card details can be opened at any time (simply click on the card when inside the card list or press the hotkey (check binds) when in the card selection menu)
There is still things left to be improved about it, but it'll allow player to have every information possible about a card.



Musics


Music in the game has been a bit of a difficult subject.
I have no skill related to music creation and was dependant on Myrtle Mist, however, his situation being a bit of difficult.
He did not had much time to focus on the music creation, also, with a bit of hindsight, I believe his music style is not fit for the style of the game.
This is why a few weeks ago, I've started to search for a new musician, with a style more fit for the game to work with me.

As of now, Scott J. Holmes will be working on the OST of the game, and here is the first music he has done:


Fight/action music will be slowly replaced by Scott's music, they are more fit for the game. however, as I know that some players will prefer the old music, I'll leave an option to keep the old music instead.


Content



Content wise, this update will be lighter than other major updates. as the update is more focus into adding new major features and reworking the game internal code, in the end, there is no time left for content.
However, I still have some new content to show off to players:

Thunder


There is a few additions related to the thunder element,

Thunder spirit.
This new Soul-card give a chance for each attack to create an arc lighting striking in chain nearby enemies

2 new evolution for the thunder staff got added,

Thunder Vial - Evolution of Thunder Staff and Explosive vial.
The Storm's staff - Evolution of Thunder staff and Thunder spirit



Active Talents


Actives Talents are finally close to being finished, only missing the Katana, every weapon talent has an active ability.
When unlocked, you'll have an orange bar at the bottom of your screen that will slowly fill-up over time. You can consume a part of this bar to cast a powerful ability related to your weapon.
Making the 20 talents of each of the weapons was a big task that will bring more variety to the game.


Gun-Slinger



A new avatar has come into town, the Gun-Slinger.



The gun slinger gameplay is very different from the usual game. There is no automatic attack, there is also only one weapon, his Pistol, you'll have also have to handle the ammo and reload at the right time.
The gunslinger also has 12 exclusive soul-cards and 9 possible weapon evolution to his pistol.
For now, the avatar hunbalanced and will get rebalanced in the near future.


Today



For my current task, I've started reworking since last week on 2 important refactorisation of the game's code.
The first refactorisation is about the way the game handles the stages, difficulties, and Game-mode.
Until now, the game modes and difficulty were hard-coded, now they are modular.
This refactorisation also prepare the code for one of the next Major update main feature, Zone variations.
This allows 2 important things:
1- Adding new difficulties, Stage or gamemode will require minor work and not having to deal with spaghetti code.
2- Modding in these into the game will be much more easier (where it was close to impossible before) while not yet supported by the Modding API, this is something that can be supported in the future without much rework.

The second refactorisation that is still in progress, is a complete rework of how the enemy's data are handled.
Right now, each enemy for each difficulty and for each game-mode are completely separate entities in the data. This leads to having about 140+ different enemies to handle.
This makes balancing the game a difficult task, and also having a bestiary completely impossible.
The new data structure will clean-up everything, having a single data per monster, and having a custom multiplier for each difficulty.
This change will likely have an impact on the balancing, since the way the enemy is chosen will also have to be changed, and the whole balancing of survivor mode will likely be changed as well.
This second refactorisation is an important step before I start working with D-rank survivors, which should come into the beta during next week.


Things left to be done



Once the D-rank survivors will be finished, there are still a few things that will be left to be finished:


Avatar animations


Avatar animations are going smoothly now. I've finally found a skilled animator to handle the current avatars, the only sad part is that she is only available for the next 2 months, so we'll try to have the most done as possible during those 2 months.
So far, Shop-keeper animations are done, the Knight Rog animation got a small improvement, next up is the Gun-slinger and then the Rogue.


Events


While they feature are programmed and roughly working, there is only a placeholder event into the game as of now, so I'll likely spend a few days into adding interesting events during February


Passive Talents


There are right now only 5 passives talents, they have not been a focus lately, but I plan to add a few dozen of them before the Update is ready to be released.
I'll also have to work on the unlocks to make their obtaining interesting.

I'm still targeting the 0.8 update to be done in early march.
I'll create a new about the date when I am sure about that the update can be delivered on time.


Optimisation



About optimization, I'll let Fernanda talk about it as she's the one handling the optimization of the game right now.



Performance Improvements



Hi! I'm Fernanda, and I'm here to talk about upcoming Performance Improvements in Rogue: Genesia. We like to be clear, transparent, and so to address the elephant in the room for our players - we are fully aware right now of the many scenarios where low FPS and high RAM usage happens in the game, and I'm here to work diligently on aiding with those.

Most of the issues are caused by the fact Rogue: Genesia opts for a fast-paced scaling where you're able to have hundreds to thousands of projectiles on screen, all of which are colliding with enemies and performing calculations. In the past, games that attempted to push the envelop in this regard required custom solutions, and we are working on them.


Average and Low FPS Situations



The game as it is is fairly optimized and can run at high frame rates out of the spot, but the baseline FPS can still be increased. Currently the FPS curve of the game goes down drastically as more weapons, projectiles, size and attack speed go up. While a performance loss is expected, these can be mitigated.

The goal is to have a far smoother curve, where the baseline FPS is increased slightly (enough to guarantee 60-144 FPS in most machines) but the extreme endgame situations where the FPS drops to 10 or so are raised significantly. We're also aware that some weapons, like Thunder Staff and some cards like Thorns Firework can cause significantly harsher declines in the FPS, sometimes halting the game entirely.

There are plans in the works not only to mitigate these problematic weapons, but also to prevent weapons from ever achieving such situations. These include dynamic changes in the calculation mechanisms behind the scenes, better handling of the CPU to GPU pipeline, parametric calculations of collisions, among other advanced techniques to allow the game to continue having its bullet hell feel, while having a stable performance.

Many of these mechanics may also end up being exposed to modders so they can test the performance of their cards and adjust them.


Performance Analytics



In order to aid with the continued development of Rogue: Genesia, custom analytics tools to measure performance and find problems quickly are being made to finding problematic cards, weapons or scenarios easier. This should allow, in the future, less risks of versions being released with particularly slow effects.


RAM Issues



We're aware of many issues users have with regards of the high RAM consumption of the game. In layman terms, a lot of stuff that games show on screen can rely entirely on the framework or engine upon which they're built, and objects, weapons, enemies, levels and so on are loaded and unloaded in such a way that result in a stable, low memory consumption.

However, most of the existing frameworks do not deal very well with the amount of projectiles and objects that Rogue: Genesia has compared to other games, resulting in objects being loaded faster than they are unloaded from memory.

These technical challenges, while requiring bespoke solutions, are not impossible to solve. We're currently researching the best methods to implement ways to manually control these while preserving (or even adding to) the modularity expected for continued modding support.

The same holds true for VRAM usage - while less visible and less reported, a side-effect of our fixes will be that low end cards with lower VRAM will also benefit from better performance.


Conclusion, ETA and a Thank You



There's much work to be done, but the work is achievable, and it's our goal to make sure that the game leaves Early Access in pristine condition - not just feature-wise, not just gameplay-wise, but also performance-wise.

The ETA for these improvements should come in batches throughout this month during beta and the next. The biggest culprits (RAM handling, Thorn Spikes, Thunder Staff, Fractal 2 Pike, and so on) are being targeted first in order to make sure players cannot run into situations where picking the wrong card can ruin their experience.

In addition, a general layout of the identified issues, slowdown causes and solutions has been mapped out, and once a more stable and robust framework is built in the game to specifically handle performance, the ongoing effort to maintain and increase FPS should be less of an "effort", and more of a natural byproduct of a smooth development cycle.

Thank you for your support and your patience,
Fernanda



Replying to some question about modding



I have also noticed some question or some things that seamed a bit unclear during the last post about modding, so I'm going to respond to that:


nexus? as someone that uses mods quite a bit, I'll be honest I rarely even check steam workshop I just go right to nexusmods.com. I guess I really should check the workshop more often if it's there



Personally I think Nexus has a pretty bad user experiences, this also don't solve any issues related to the game correctly handling mods or not.
As of now, the current way the mods are centralized is through ThunderStore, but Most user will prefer Steam workshop as it's implemented by default in Steam.



Before transition to support two distinct version of the game using mono and IL2CPP at the same time, you may want to check if you couldn't solve modding problem in IL2CPP using Unity Addressables. It can be used to load pre-defined things during runtime, and with a bit of tinkering these pre-defined things may be also compiled at runtime using content from StreamAssets directory and Addressables API.

I personally think that the best way to support modding is to make the game as a actual mod, like Neverwinter I was made - so starting from day 0 with that in mind.

Anyway, best of luck!



From my experiences, Addressable is not a very stable feature of unity (I already got many issues related to that), I'm not sure the amount of workload it would require to make your suggestiong doable.

Another reason I also prefer to go to Mono for modding, is that the game Class is much easier to access in Mono, than IL2CPP, since the class, function and everything is still compiled in cpp. Making moding for moder much more difficult and less friendly.

About making the game as an actualy mod, this is way to late for that now. but more vanilla content is handled in a similar way that the game handle modded content (soul-card, difficulties, gamemode, avatars...)


The creator of necesse managed to get a workshop page for the mods for his game, and it also uses BepInEx as far as I know, maybe he can help you to do the same with rogue genesia, he's very active and always helping ppl with everything on his discord!



This is a possibility I through about.
But I don't like the idea of required an external software into a game sold on Steam.
also, since R:G is using IL2CPP, an experimental version of BepinEx is required, which can easily lead to a great deal of issues I would have no control over.


Rogue: Genesia Modding

Hello.


Today I'm going to talk about modding!



Since I have been a modder for many years before working on Rogue: Genesia, Modding is an essential topic to me, and making the game moddable was and still is an objective!

Modding as of today


As of today (late Janurary 2023) Modding is still in its infancy.
Modding requires the use of BepInEx, and is mainly hosted on ThunderStore. so most user simply don't know about modding or are simply ignored.
Mod so far mainly consists of additional cards and custom challenges. while some modded weapons have been made, due to update, they are now broken

(example of modded cards created by some players)




The structure of the game and the (unfinished) modding API currently allow for several things to be modded.
Cards, weapons, challenges, stats, and elite abilities are fully moddable and supported by the game in version 0.7,
in the beta for update 0.8, Events, Avatars and Talents are also fully moddable and supported by the game.
Custom enemies are not possible as of now, but is planned to be added later on.
Additional World-Rank is not supported but would likely be possible with a lot of work.

However, the game is compiled using Unity's IL2CPP (for extra performance gain, as the game is compiled in C++ instead of C#), this leads to the creation of mods being way harder than if the game was compiled in Mono, it also make the creation of mod depend on BepInEx with very limited mean to add proper official Mod Support into the game.

Possibles solutions


My first major objective about modding is having a posibilities to not using BepInEx and having official mod support using Steam Workshop. However, IL2CPP greatly limits the possibilities of loading Assemblies during runtime (so mods).

Performances comparision are planned to be run in the near future between IL2CPP and MONO version of the game to know how big the different is.
In case the performance different is minimal (<5%) I'll likely move the game to MONO.
In the other case (which is sadly the most likely) I'll create 2 versions of the game that can be chosen during launch, Vanilla (IL2CPP) version that doesn't have any form of mod support, and Modded (MONO) Version, that will support modding but have lower performance capabilities.

The transition from IL2CPP to MONO will break all the current mods, but I consider it a necessary step. The transition to MONO for modding is expected to occur during the 0.9 Update beta

Future of modding


I believe better modding would be a great addition to the game, especially for the long term, as a ton of content and features could be added by modders, way beyond what I could support myself. And Steam's Workshop would add a proper spotlight and visibility to modders.

The goal would be to make a mod menu where the player can choose which mod to load/unload, having setable load-order, automatic handling of dependency, and most importantly, Mod profile that can be easily shared.

I would also give my thanks to chendrak from the game's discord, for all his work in trying to mod the game and the precious feedback he gave me, that helped push the game moddability so far!

If you are interested in modding (either as a modder or user of mods) you are welcome to come on the game discord!

2022 and the future of Rogue: Genesia

Hello Everyone!



New year just happened (well, it's already been nine days), and what a year.

Back in May, when I started the development of Rogue: Genesia, I did not expect the success it would have back then!

I want to thank you all


For the success you allowed Rogue: Genesia to have during 2022!

I'm also very impressed by the time players spent in Rogue: Genesia, with an average play-time of 20 hours 45 minutes and a median of 10 hours 11 minutes.
That means more than half of the players have played for more than 10 hours!

I would also like to improve my communication about the game on Steam, and bring monthly news to update you guys about the progress of the game, especially during major beta where there are no small update in the game, and I'm starting now!

December 2022


December is a busy month: Christmass, New years eve (and birthday), slowed down progress during the last third of December. However, I still have a lot of progress to show you guys about the beta:

The Major Update 0.8 is still expected to be released during march



Beta is already available to anyone, you simply have to join the discord and check into the beta-announcements channel to see how you can join the beta!



Avatar


While most of the work has been put into the base system, a few avatars already been created



There is still many unfinished stuff to do, like the ability to buy them, putting achievement to unlock some of them, and adding a few more. I want to target six unique avatars for the 0.8 major update,

But the main issues at the moment are the animation as I've still not found anyone to make them, so this is something that can put the update behind schedule.



Talents


Similarly to Avatar, Talent has the basic system done and working

There is an active talent for each weapon that allow you to start with the weapon of your choice if you unlocked the talent, and I've started adding active ability to some of these talent, but there is a huge amount of ability to make (about 22) so it's gonna be a big task that'll slowly be completed over time.



The player will also gain one passive ability slot for each new difficulty completed after E rank (so you can only have 2 slot as of now) a slot increase is planned to be added in soul-shop later on.



There are only four passive talents for now, but more are planned during the beta.
They can also become interesting game-play modifier



Events


0.8 will also see the addition of real events. where you will have a situation with multiple choice.
The base system is working but it is now lacking content for it, which as the other features will be added during the beta





Optimization


Optimization is a concern to many player and I've seen many request to improve on it, so I'll respond to this topic here, and it's gonna be a bit savvy.
Optimization has been a major concern to me during the whole developement of the game, and I've spent a big amount of time on it, however, there is a limitation to the optimization that can be done.

Graphic Usage


I've seen many people complaining about the graphic usage of Rogue: Genesia when it's simply a 2D pixel art game.
Rogue: Genesia is not a 2D game, it's a fully 3D game, having modern lighting, shading and post-processing, running on Unity High Definition Render Pipeline (HDRP).
This means that whatever I do to improve performance there is a limit to what can be removed before the game simply become ugly or lose it's art-style.
The lowest quality is the maximum of the game graphics that I can remove.
Also, Unity HDRP have a base graphic cost that simply can't be removed, even with nothing on screen, some people will have no performance or simply can't run the game.

Inconsistant framerate



There is moment when the game that was running nicely in the beginning simply come to a crawl in late game. This framerate issues is dues to the CPU usage of the game, and have nothing to do with the graphic card.

You can only have so many projectile and enemies interacting with each other before the performance start to tank, This is mainly dues to the collision detection simply being expensive. Imagine each thousands of projectiles having to check if they enter collision with hundred of enemies each frames, that make hundred of thousand of collision to check.

And then ?


So far, I've reached the maximum of my capabilityabout the optimization of the game.
I don't see anything that I can do to improve the game optimization (that will have a significant impact).
This is why I've hired someone, with a lot more experience and knowledge about games optimizations to work on it. I hope that the person will be able to bring improvement on the matter.

2023 RoadMap


My hope is for the game to reach 1.0 near the end of 2023, there is a huge amount of work still left to be done in the game, but there is still a few feature I would like to add into the game:

Making all the World tier up to A


Each majors updates after 0.8 will add a new world-tier.
0.9 is hoped to be released during early summer, adding C-tier world and a few other things.

Adding more variety


While new tier will add new zone and increase variety, always going through the same forest biome with the same enemies can be a bit boring, this is why I would like to slowly increase variety of enemies and environment.
I don't know yet when it'll happen, but I would like to add zone-variant. For example having a snowy pine biome instead of the normal forest, having its exclusive enemies.
Also adding sort of "curse" over the zone or stage, that will apply modifiers to gameplay.
Having a stage with more defined enemies, instead of having the mash-up of all enemies we have now.

More content


Of course, more content, having more cards, more buff/debuff, new boss, new talent, new avatar, new achievements...

 

 

Hotfix 0.7.1.4a

Fixes



  • No evolution challenge don't removing guaranteed evolution in blacksmith
  • 7 sins achievements not having the correct icons
  • Modded challenge not being displayed in game
  • Description of Aura conversion not having the cap


Modding



  • Challenge can now have custom description with colour code(in case modders want to implement custom modifiers to challenges or simply want to add more informations)

  • Added a new function to build custom description for challenges
    ModGenesia.ChallengeAPI.BuildCustomChallengeDescription(string Key, List localisedText, CustomChallengeDescription.EDescriptionType descriptionType)

  • Challenge adding function got slighty modified and moved to another class
    ModGenesia.ModGenesia.AddCustomChallenge(string name, EDifficulty worldRank,float soulCoinMultiplier ,ChallengeModifier challengeModifier, bool isHardMode, List localisedName, int oder = 9)
    marked as obselete, Use
    ModGenesia.ChallengeAPI.AddCustomChallenge(string name, EDifficulty worldRank,float soulCoinMultiplier ,ChallengeModifier challengeModifier, bool isHardMode, List localisedName, int oder = 9, List CustomDescription = null)
    Instead

Update 0.7.1.4

QoL



  • added formating to the damage value of weapons (as they can easily reach unreadable numbers)
  • added back-up files to achievements, should prevent lost of In-Game achievement in the futures (or at least highly mitigate the issue)


Changes



  • Slighty reduced Third zone Elite's Health
  • Slighty reduced Third zone first boss health


Fix



  • Elite with garantee ability sometime rolling it twice